and he says "Sergeant, you’ve been dudded. You’ve done a fantastic job and I want to congratulate you on a job well done, but you’re not getting a warrant. So you can just get back to your station.
And no explanation as to why?
No. I can only think it was Goossens being a Papal Knight.
Goossens a papal Knight? I didn’t know he was a Papal Knight.
Yeah, he was a Papal Knight.
I knew he was Catholic, but I didn’t think he was a Papal Knight.
Well he may not have been a Papal Knight, but he was Catholic.Delaney was a Papal Knight, but. Anyway that was Colin Delaney, and he shook my hand and congratulated me on a job well done. And I’m still waiting officially... for when you submit a file in the police department, and I assume it is still the same, you get an answer back on paper. I’m eighty-two now, still waiting.
Anything unofficial?
Only what Delaney told me.
How did this whole thing start? How did he first come to your attention, Sir Eugene?
There was two fellows, members of the coven, they were in there one day and they found down the back of a sofa-there were only a sofa and a coupla chairs in the whole room-found some negatives and they took them and hawked them around the various newspapers. And the Sun, I think it was, developed them, but they were too hot, so they rang Ron Waldren, and Waldren sent me down. So I got the photos, and they were indeed hot.
When I started on the case I was told to mind my back, which I did. The first thing was to make copies of my file and evidence. I put the original in the hubcap of the spare wheel in the boot, a copy under a pile of rubbish in the garage, and another in my locker at work. I took a copy to Ron Waldren for a warrant who recommended a warrant should be issued. It was forwarded to Col Delaney, who directed a warrant be issued and forwarded it to the Government; only to be told no warrant would be issued.
Who in Government would it have been forwarded to?
Minister of Justice.
Who was that?
Don’t remember, but he was catholic. You must remember the big players in government those days was catholic. And the Premier, Joe Cahill, was catholic, and Eugene was catholic and a mate of Joe’s. It was them that got the Opera House going.
I say unreservedly it was a conspiracy to deny me a warrant. However a few years later there was some talk that they were gonna invite Goossens back to the opening of the Opera House. I was hoping that they would. Because I wouldn’t need a warrant then.
You wouldn’t?
Nah.
How?
I paid five pounds to get a photograph of him committing buggery...
On a man or a woman?
On Norton. And he didn’t come back. But I didn’t need a warrant if he had’ve.
Why?
Well on the first occasion a warrant was necessary because it was a common law misdemeanour and there’s no power of arrest under a common law misdemeanour without a warrant-unless you have him in custody. And the second matter it is an offence under the Crimes Act and under the Crimes Act a warrant is not required.
There was a suggestion made in Truth around the middle of March 1957 that the coven had members in high places -even in the government.
I don’t know about that. All I can say is that when I was denied a warrant for Goossens, Greenlees and Norton, I discontinued my inquiries. I thought what’s good enough for the goose....
Bit of a pun there...
Yeah?
Good enough for the Goosens...?
Aw, yeah... Good.
You were involved in a previous case with Norton and Greenlees while Sir Eugene was abroad. Would you tell me about that?
They were charged with making an indecent publication, and Roie was charged with buggery. They were found not guilty and when I spoke with the jurors afterwards-you’re not supposed to, but I did-they said we found it hard to believe that a man would commit buggery with a woman.
Indeed?
Yeah... Aw well... Shortly afterwards I got a transfer from the Vice Squad.
Were you glad to get out?
Oh yeah.
Why?
Aw it was a sordid sort of thing and there was danger there all the time.
Like what?
Well, like one of the prostitutes, working the Cross, she was a very attractive girl about nineteen, and she wanted me to be her bludger, look after her, and any time I wanted a winkie she would be there for me and pay me half of what she took.
Good offer.
Very good, and frightened the life outa me. But once you do that with them you’re theirs for the rest of your life. So I said thanks very much but no thank you. I know some detectives who have fallen for the three-card trick, but not this one. I had a wife and three kids, and a house, a name that was highly respected. I could have been bought, but you’re thinking along the lines of about ten million. So what If I got landed? I could pack up and go to any part of the world and spend the money.
Ten million?
Ten million. I’m looking here at lost wages and superannuation if I’m landed, plus a large amount for pain and suffering.
You don’t come cheap.
I don’t come cheap.
Before we began this recording you told me about a violinist...
Yes... A young fella he was in Goossens’ orchestra and he was told, asked, to come to the coven, but he decided he couldn’t be in that and Goossens told him he would not go anywhere as a violinist. He was finished.
In Australia?
His career as a violinist was finished...Full stop. Period. But nevertheless, years later he became a number one violinist in one of the international orchestras.
Did he tell you his name?
He wouldn’t tell me his name.
Was there any suggestion of homosexuality? For that sounds funny to me, that.
Well that’s what it was all about... homosexuality.
No, I mean about the young violinist.
No, no. Goossens just wanted him to come to the coven. There couldn’t have been that, otherwise the kid wouldn’t have come to me and blown the whistle. Because he would have been involving himself. He told me you can use it the best you can, but don’t mention my name for I’ll deny I ever know you.
Was Eugene buggering Greenlees as well as Roie?
Yeah.
What did you see in the photographs?
Well the photographs I have are mainly between Roie and Greenlees.
He was buggering Roie?
Yeah.Flagellation and all of that sort...there was one there where he’s sticking a soft drink bottle in the old girl and that sort of stuff. In the coven there had to be one woman and at least two men before they could have their circle for sex magic. And they would sit there on the floor naked and each man would activate the woman sexually... and bring her on until she reached the what you call it...?
Orgasm? Climax?
Climax. And I said to Goossens how did you get her to reach climax? And this he didn’t put in his statement except to say I did it as I explained to Detective Trevener. And on occasions he stimulated Roie Norton with his tongue.
Cunnulingus?
Mmm. So that was what used to go on...some of the things that used to go on at the coven. And there were two girls at the Conservatorium Goossens tried to get into the coven and they also said, don’t use us for we’ll say we don’t even know you. And they refused to join. There was those who said what he did for music was marvelous. Well so much for marvelous for there were three people I know he tried to get into the coven and one he said would never work again.
Now there was something about masks. Did you see the masks?
No… Norton… It was Pantheism they practised, and that was a perversion on the story of Pan, the mythological Pan. And I said," How do you run that, Roie?" And she said if you promise to come as a civilian, not as a copper, I’ll let you watch one.
I said,"Aww, I don’t think so." I wasn’t stupid about asking but I wasn’t that thick.
She was a dirty bitch.
Was she?
Oh yeah. I couldn’t imagine me sticking my tongue in her. Ooo, Gawd.
No?
Definitely not.
What we see today must drive you a bit insane; what we see on the open market.
Yeah.
Things have changed.
Yeah.
Morals have changed.
Yeah. That could be put down to Mr. Walker.He was the Minister of Justice. Lost his seat and went Federal.He was the bloke who disbanded the Vice Squad and threw out the street offences act and the vagrancy act. He ruined... in my opinion - the streets of Sydney. And now the criminals or the hoodlums can come along to your wife and tell her where to go and what to do when she got there. And you couldn’t do a damn thing about it other than give him a smack in the mouth and you’d be arrested for assault. So now the streets of Sydney are a dangerous place to roam. If I’m out on my own-I’ve did a bit of boxing, wrestling, and Rugby Union. I think I can look after me self as a street fighter. When I’m out, particularly on my own, I walk down adjacent to the fence and watch the lights until I get to shadow, and then the next light. If you saw me out don’t speak to me close for I’m gonna smack you in the mouth straight off. For this is the streets of Sydney today. In my opinion it’s 90% Walkers fault. He threw out these offences. They’re no longer offences. The Current State Government say they’ve done a marvelous thing-they’re trying to stamp it out. They’ve brought in this law about the carrying knives. That’s been in since the 1940’s to my knowledge.
What were your impressions of Gavin?
Greenlees? Country boy originally. Family owned a country newspaper. Bit o’ money there. But Roie wouldn’t have let him see much of it.
He was disgusting. When we went to arrest him-she wasn’t there- when we went into the coven the door was there-and on this wall there was a hand basin. There, was a lounge and a table beside. On the wall, above an altar type of thing, was a painting of Pan. Now Greenlees is sitting there and his fingernails are long and curving over. I guarantee there was about a pound of dirt under them. His toenails were the same with maybe two pounds of dirt under them. He had a couple days of growth of beard on him, and he wanted to have a shave before we took him down to the station. So he went to the hand basin and turned on the cold water, splashed his face and started to shave with a safety razor.
No soap?
Soap? They didn’t know what soap was. If it wasn’t something to eat, they didn’t want to know anything about it. Anyway I watched him and he would sometimes dig too deep with the razor until eventually the blood was running down his face. Didn’t seem to worry him. He’d just splash some more cold water and carry on. Now that’s the type of people they were.
There was one photograph of Roie lying on a bench type of thing, no clothes on, knees apart and he’s standing over her. From memory he’s got a coin in his hand and he’s trying to put that in the slot. He was flagellating her with an electric cord, making out he was kicking her, and you could see the marks on her body.
I noticed on the customs manifest there was mention of incense sticks.
That’s right.
I wondered what was so important about incense sticks.
I think they used them in the conduct of the coven. When we were talking to him he wanted to know how Miss Norton had got on. I said,"How did you know about her?" Playing the real Dill.
"Oh," he said, "I saw that she’d been arrested."
So I said,"Why did you bring all this stuff in if you read she’d been arrested?"
He said, "I watched the papers and didn’t see that she’d been charged so I didn’t think she had mentioned me."
Had she said anything involving him?
Oh yeah. I got a bundle of letters from out of the same settee the photos were found from him to her.
So she gave you certain information?
No.She didn’t give me information at all. The letters were signed. That’s what tied him up. We didn’t ask her about him. I didn’t want to blow the whistle until he came home.
I read somewhere there was a sort of deal struck -plea bargain number. That if she put him in you guys would be lenient.
No there was nothing like that at all, as far as I know of, and I was in charge of the case.
How many times did you meet Roie?
Aw, numerous. Prior to the case I’d never met her at all. I’d heard about her-the witch of Kings Cross.
So when did you first start the case?
When the photographs turned up from the Sun.We arrested those two fellows and charged them... they got six months from memory.
What for?
Flogging indecent photographs.
Did Eugene have any of those photographs in his possession?
No. When he was arrested at the airport he had 760 odd indecent photographs in his possession he’d bought overseas. There was one set I thought was rather insulting of a policewoman getting on a pushbike. There’s one where she’s standing beside the pushbike. The next one she’s getting the leg up, the next one she’s got the leg over the bike and you can see everything. Then she gets on the bike. There was about five in that set from memory. Then there’s a bunch of Bucks and Does all in the raw, all thrown in together and who was up who you couldn’t tell. He bought some in Europe, some in London. I think there was a kiosk in Trafalgar square.
Leicester Square.
No, Trafalgar.
It’s just that I was reading that one of your informants told you he had watched him buy certain items of that nature from a kiosk in Leicester square. I know it’s only a detail, but I’ve gotta be precise.
Leicester, then. There’s kiosks like that all over the place.
A funny thing was, when Nat Craig was questioning him he had a briefcase. Nat asked would he mind opening it. He’d forgotten the key. Oh yeah? Well Nat pulled out the most wicked knife I’d ever seen and flicked it open. It had a blade on it about that long with a curve, and Nat said,"I’m sorry if I damage this briefcase, but I’ve gotta see what’s in there."